Let's compare card drop rates

[The_Round_Peg]

I’ve won 186 matches so far. I’ve had only FOUR card drops.

So, the card drop rate I have is 2.15%, less than the 3% or 5% as claimed.

And I didn’t start out with a lot of cards. I started with 6 challenge cards and picked 3 starter cards (that’s 6 plus 3.) Won 4 from matches and another 7 from challenges. So I have 20 cards now.


How many matches have you won?

How many cards have you gotten from winning matches?

How many cards did you have before playing Kongai (plus/minus starter cards)?

How many cards have you won from challenges since playing Kongai?

How many total cards do you have now?

[Kirandio]

I started playing this game a few days after it came out. I had only 3 items and I picked starters before playing around with the Random option. I currently have 26 cards, but I think that is counting a duplicate Andromeda. I do not get as many cards from winning as I did before.

[HypersonicEspo]

Why are you complaining?

[The_Round_Peg]

dfewtwefeaewfaef

WTF!? :confused:

[redenmity]

i had 45/46 cards + duplicates when Kongai went full release. I've won 11 cards in 179 wins since then. pwnt.

just be patient. i won about 800+ games during beta. i won 8 cards after the 2/3% drop rate was turned on. i remember waiting 80 somthing games before my first card win. we all feel ya, but there's nothing anyone here in sirlin forums can do about it. take it to kongregate forums. warning tho, its been said and done there before so, dont expect any more luck there than here.

There are more than enough card challenges going on now and new card sets on their way. Keep optimistic and keep playing.

[Penney]

182 wins and 12 cards by estimates. I tried to rule out games where I had less than 10 cards because the drop rates are much greater in that case. That is the reason I can only estimate.

I got uber lucky yesterday though and got 3 cards in 26 wins, thats why the numbers look better than they should.

Penney

[Davi__]

115 wins, 6 cards
now I have 28 cards

[zakid]

i got about 230 wins in beta. The first 50 doesn't count because there was no possibility to win cards.
+70 wins after release
which makes about 250 wins. and I won 4 cards. That is 1,6% for me. I don't complain, because I have all cards anyway:)

[The_Round_Peg]

^ Beta doesn't count. How many cards have you won AFTER the beta?

[EsIeX3]

180 wins/5 cards (i think).

[The_Round_Peg]

just be patient. i won about 800+ games during beta. i won 8 cards after the 2/3% drop rate was turned on. i remember waiting 80 somthing games before my first card win. we all feel ya, but there's nothing anyone here in sirlin forums can do about it. take it to kongregate forums. warning tho, its been said and done there before so, dont expect any more luck there than here.
Just be patient, that's what people told me when I had about 150 wins and 3 card drops.

Even if I start getting a lot of card drops now, I'm still overall getting shafted because my card drop average will never catch up. On the average, I'm still getting screwed.

Kongai has basically wasted my time.

[The_Round_Peg]

And I've just rated this game a "1".

1 star – I have lowered the rating from 4 to 3 to 1. What’s the reason? I’ve won 186 matches so far (lost only 70.) I’ve had only FOUR card drops. So, the card drop rate I have is 2.15%, less than the 3% or 5% as claimed. And I didn’t start out with a lot of cards. I started with 6 challenge cards and picked 3 starter cards (that’s 6 plus 3.) Won 4 from matches and another 7 from challenges. So I have 20 cards now.

[EsIeX3]

So in other words, you gave Kongai a rating of "1" because your luck sucks.

[redenmity]

Kongai has basically wasted my time.

You weren't having fun? Winning cards or not, i had plenty of fun. Random All matches were some of the most fun. If the game isnt fun simply b/c you're not winning cards, then ... i dunno. It prolly wont be fun even if you are winning cards.

[Penney]

Just be patient, that's what people told me when I had about 150 wins and 3 card drops.

Even if I start getting a lot of card drops now, I'm still overall getting shafted because my card drop average will never catch up. On the average, I'm still getting screwed.

Kongai has basically wasted my time.

The card drop rate can catch up, I got 2 cards within a span of 4 games yesterday and another one 20 games later. With the amount of times I miss 90 and 95% chances I don't think I could really be called lucky either. Stuff like that will catch you up real fast.

Just play. That's what I told myself yesterday when I was fed up with not having the cards I wanted to build decks with. The 3 cards are all worthless to me that I won, but at least maybe I will win better ones next time.

I rated Kongai a 5 even though my luck does tend to suck.

Penney

[zakid]

^ Beta doesn't count. How many cards have you won AFTER the beta?

That makes 75 wins, 2 cards.

[The_Round_Peg]

You weren't having fun? Winning cards or not, i had plenty of fun. Random All matches were some of the most fun. If the game isnt fun simply b/c you're not winning cards, then ... i dunno. It prolly wont be fun even if you are winning cards.
No, for me it's not fun anymore.

At this point, it's getting more frustrating than fun. In fact, it's not even fun anymore. I'm not even playing for fun anymore. It's like I'm playing just to keep on hoping and praying I'll get a new card. And it's become more and more frustrating.

In fact, I'd stopped playing for two weeks after winning 140+ matches because it had gotten so frustrating, and not fun. I stopped because I wasn't getting any card drop and it wasn't fun anymore (and I also lowered the rating from 4 to 3 stars when I first left.)

I only got back into the game since last week because there's an update last week -- I thought the update would fix the problem. It didn't.

[The_Round_Peg]

The card drop rate can catch up, I got 2 cards within a span of 4 games yesterday and another one 20 games later. With the amount of times I miss 90 and 95% chances I don't think I could really be called lucky either. Stuff like that will catch you up real fast.

Just play. That's what I told myself yesterday when I was fed up with not having the cards I wanted to build decks with. The 3 cards are all worthless to me that I won, but at least maybe I will win better ones next time.

I rated Kongai a 5 even though my luck does tend to suck.

Penney
And how many cards have you won? How many matches have you won?

[garcia1000]

No, for me it's not fun anymore.

At this point, it's getting more frustrating than fun. In fact, it's not even fun anymore. I'm not even playing for fun anymore. It's like I'm playing just to keep on hoping and praying I'll get a new card. And it's become more and more frustrating.

In fact, I'd stopped playing for two weeks after winning 140+ matches because it had gotten so frustrating, and not fun. I stopped because I wasn't getting any card drop and it wasn't fun anymore (and I also lowered the rating from 4 to 3 stars when I first left.)

I only got back into the game since last week because there's an update last week -- I thought the update would fix the problem. It didn't.

If it's not fun, then you shouldn't play amirite? Playing to get cards for a game that is not fun is pretty pointless

[Penney]

And how many cards have you won? How many matches have you won?

It says earlier in the thread, so I will assume you are being sarcastic because you are so frustrated.

All I can tell you is that the drop rate cant get better if you don't play.

Even though other people say differently, I seem to win more cards the more cards I already won. My first one being at 43, and my later ones being 20 or less most of the time.

I used to complain about getting screwed all the time, then I stopped caring and started to win more cards. If I didn't know better I would say the chance to win a card varies inversely to how much you want to win a card.

I won more cards playing to test out decks than I won playing because I was so frustrated for not winning cards.

That's just my experience.

Penney

[The_Round_Peg]

If it's not fun, then you shouldn't play amirite? Playing to get cards for a game that is not fun is pretty pointless
It's not fun because I'm not getting rewards for winning. Let me give you a bit of hint here:

The point of playing and winning in games is to feel rewarded, to be positively reinforced for achievements. In Diablo and WoW, you feel rewarded when you level up, because you earn points to build a better character. Even if you don’t get random item, you still earn money and experience that you can use to build a better character. That’s a very consistent and predictable positive reinforcement cycle.

It’s basic psychology. It’s like a mouse in a maze, and a researcher rewards the mouse with cheeses for going the right direction and turning the right switch. It’s the same basic underlying principle that drives game design, i.e., the reward or payoff system. It’s consistent and predictable positive reinforcement. That’s a main point of gaming and what makes gaming fun: people want to feel being positively reinforced because that’s gratifying.

In Kongai, when you win and don’t get cards, what rewards are you getting? NOTHING. Gaining levels or ranks in Kongai doesn’t give you any reward. Winning by itself doesn’t give you any consistent reward. When you don’t get card drops for winning over and over again, that’s mean you’re NOT getting any reward, and you're being NEGATIVELY reinforced, and it's NOT fun.

Obviously whoever designed the reward system in Kongai doesn’t know a darn thing about game design (or psychology for that matter.) I’d wager he doesn’t play too many games himself either.

[MaddAddams]

Does anyone else find this thread funny, coming from a guy who's begging Kong staff to delete some of his cards?

[krick19]

Does anyone else find this thread funny, coming from a guy who's begging Kong staff to delete some of his cards?

Oh the irony.

[The_Round_Peg]

Does anyone else find this thread funny, coming from a guy who's begging Kong staff to delete some of his cards?
Because the more cards you have, the lower probability you have for card drop.

I don't use my starter cards. Might as well lose them to improve my chances of getting some useful cards.

It's only irony when you're too dumb to figure in "more cards = less card drops." Now I just want more card drops than anything else.

Oh the irony.

What did I tell you at Kongregate?

Lmao Peg, if you want to hate on kongai, maybe you should make ONE thread “Kongai Rant” and stop making a ton of pointless threads about your starter cards and how you are amazing at 5 card.
Here are my responses if you haven't already seen them:

If you don’t like my threads and say they are pointless, then you should really just stop reading them and bothering me. I can post whatever I like here, and you can always skip them. No one forces you to read my threads.

When you see the first voice is “The_Round_Peg”, don’t read anything, so you shouldn’t be posting anything. Just LEAVE.

And we’ll be fine with each other, okay? Stay out of my way, and I’ll stay out of yours.

Here, you can easily find out who started a thread. There's no excuse for you to keep bothering and harrassing me.

[Charred]

It's not fun because I'm not getting rewards for winning. Let me give you a bit of hint here:

So clarify for us:

If you had all the cards, would you still play?

[The_Round_Peg]

So clarify for us:

If you had all the cards, would you still play?
That's like asking WoW players who have reached the maximum levels why they are still playing.

I expect new card sets from Kongai. The Pirates, Robots, Vikings and Knights are coming soon, and more will be forthcoming after those sets.

And don't expect anyone to play Kongai forever, but it should be FUN while it lasts. And now it's frustrating, and not fun (for me at least.)

[EsIeX3]

I don't use my starter cards. Might as well lose them to improve my chances of getting some useful cards.

TRP's starters: chi cannon, boobs-almost-exposed ninja, origami crane.

I can understand origami crane, but rumi and hig are really useful cards.

That's like asking WoW players who have reached the maximum levels why they are still playing.

But we're asking you. Since the only reward you see is gaining cards and not the joy of kicking some noob's ass, would you still play even if you had all the cards?

[Charred]

Wow players at max levels join raiding guilds, start alts or quit. Not everyone plays to collect equipment. Further, this is a terrible comparison because in WoW collecting equipment increases the power of your character and, assuming balanced or nearly balanced cards, collecting cards does not increase power. It certainly increases variety but if you want variety you can simply start at alt with different starters or play random.

My boss often tells me that frustration is the result of expectations that do not match reality. You seem frustrated. Clearly your expectation is that Kongai (the game) is a method to collect the cards. However, the reality of the situation is that the people that run Kongregate (which are different from the game developer) have decided that the way you get cards is NOT through the game but through the Kongregate website.

In order for you to stop being frustrated, you need to accept the fact that Kongai is NOT the method for card acquisition you think it is or you need to put the game behind you.

[The_Round_Peg]

TRP's starters: chi cannon, boobs-almost-exposed ninja, origami crane.

I can understand origami crane, but rumi and hig are really useful cards.
I can't use Higashi or Rumiko with another character because they compete for the same item. I have to pick one out of the three character, and I picked the other characters I won from challenges. The other character is more useful to me with that item. If I had TWO of that item, then, yeah, either Higashi or Rumiko could possibly be more useful to me.


But we're asking you. Since the only reward you see is gaining cards and not the joy of kicking some noob's ass, would you still play even if you had all the cards?
First of all, noobs don't want to play with me when they see my levels.

Secondly, it was fun at first. But at some point, keep winning games and NOT getting cards from them became more and more frustrating, because I kept coming across other players talking about what cards and how many they had won from matches in Chats and Forums.

Players do treat dropped cards as rewards and achievements, and more cards = more options to help build a better set. I have more wins and much less losses than them do, and I don't even get half as many card drops as they have. Is that fair?

Levels and ranks mean jack - they are actually penalties. High levels and ranks penalize you because no one wants to play with you, and you have to waste more time looking for (high-level) opponents, which means that further lowers my chances to win cards.

[The_Round_Peg]

Tell me this: what's exactly wrong with getting one card per level?

That's certainly a much, much better way to reward cards than the broken system Kongai has right now. Not to mention that'd also discourage card farming.

But now it's too late to completely overhaul the reward system, because Kongregate will have to reset cards for all players with a new reward system. It's just lack of planning on Kongregate's part.

[xAS]

The problem with one card per level is that defeats the whole purpose behind creating the game (from kongregate's point of view). You are really only supposed to get cards from kongregate challenges, the ~3% drop is just a nice reward for playing. On top of that, your drop rate isn't even that far off... 186 * .03 = 5.58. Would you really be satisfied if you had the extra 1.58 cards?

If you want to try all the different cards play Random All. I've stopped playing constructed decks completely, even in ranked matches, and it suits me just fine.

If you really just have to have a certain 6 card deck, start a new account and play 20 games on Random All. Chances are you'll pick up at least 2 of the 6 cards in that time and you can get the other three as starters. You also won't have the problem of no one wanting to play you since you start out at a low rank again.

Finally, if you're just absolutely fed up with the system, stop playing. The card you want will turn up in a challenge eventually. If the only reason you're playing the game is to grind out card rewards then you're clearly not playing the way any of the designers intended.

[EsIeX3]

Tell me this: what's exactly wrong with getting one card per level?

Because people with a less cards need an advantage getting cards.

Not to mention that'd also discourage card farming.

Explain.

Levels and ranks mean jack - they are actually penalties. High levels and ranks penalize you because no one wants to play with you, and you have to waste more time looking for (high-level) opponents, which means that further lowers my chances to win cards.

You can't quit in ranked. That's why I never play quickmatch.

I don't understand why people complain about other people quitting when they play quickmatch rather than ranked. Ranked match solves not only that problem, but it also solves the problem of having to face really mediocre people.

I can't use Higashi or Rumiko with another character because they compete for the same item. I have to pick one out of the three character, and I picked the other characters I won from challenges. The other character is more useful to me with that item. If I had TWO of that item, then, yeah, either Higashi or Rumiko could possibly be more useful to me.

Gens Insig -> Higashi, Scroll -> Rumiko. I know, you can't use gen's insig on Yoshiro if you do this, but you can use a different finisher like Andromeda/chalice instead.


BTW, you have an edit button, stop double posting.

[The_Round_Peg]

The problem with one card per level is that defeats the whole purpose behind creating the game (from kongregate's point of view). You are really only supposed to get cards from kongregate challenges, the ~3% drop is just a nice reward for playing.
So, the point of playing Kongai is NOT to play Kongai, but to play OTHER games to get cards?

And how long do you think we have to wait for all different cards to show up in challenges? Like, a year? Two? So, are you going to be at Kongregate every week, not taking a week of vacation or time off, just to make sure you get all the cards?


If you want to try all the different cards play Random All. I've stopped playing constructed decks completely, even in ranked matches, and it suits me just fine.
That's you. I have played random cards before, but I stopped playing them because they're not fun. Now using random card is really really not fun, even worse than not getting cards.


If you really just have to have a certain 6 card deck, start a new account and play 20 games on Random All. Chances are you'll pick up at least 2 of the 6 cards in that time and you can get the other three as starters. You also won't have the problem of no one wanting to play you since you start out at a low rank again.
I don't start a new account. Period. I consider that as cheating.

And it's insensible to suggest people to start a new account just for Kongai. I have saved games, achievements, levels, ranks and badges for other games -- many that are better than Kongai. I want to keep those things I've earned with my account. I don't like Kongai enough to start a new account just for it. Way too much hassle for a game that's already giving me too much frustration.

Finally, if you're just absolutely fed up with the system, stop playing. The card you want will turn up in a challenge eventually. If the only reason you're playing the game is to grind out card rewards then you're clearly not playing the way any of the designers intended.
That's what I did a while ago, and I started playing again when I read Kongai had just put out an update, hoping that Kongai had fixed the problem. I'll actually stop playing Kongai from now on... until whatever, when Kongregate fixes the problem or something.

[PureChance]

why do people keeping taking the bait and dragging this conversation out?

just curious...

morbid curiosity on how many times someone can say the same thing again and again and again?? having fun poking the badger?? wat??

[krick19]

First off I apologize immensely for posting again, and I commend you for attempting to end our argument, but I'd just like to say one thing. Please don't take it offensively.

I personally believe that though it is unfair you haven't gotten your cards, a 2% win rate is pretty good, imho. Imagine if it was say, a 6 or 7% rate. It would be so diluted, winning a card would mean nothing. Now, I like it because it allows new members to quickly win good cards, and then after they have a sizable amount, allow them to slowly complete their collection. I know I liked finally completing my collection; it made me feel like I accomplished a bit(wow, that sounds nerdy). If every one completed their collection in 150-200 wins, what would be the fun? Also, the main attraction of Kongai is the game itself. You shouldn't rate a game down because you can't complete your deck as quickly as you like. As you say, you have 180 wins, and if you've played it 200 times, you must like it.

[The_Round_Peg]

... a 2% win rate is pretty good, imho. Imagine if it was say, a 6 or 7% rate. It would be so diluted, winning a card would mean nothing.
2% is pretty good... if everyone else with the same amount of cards are also getting cards are 2%.

The problem here is some people are getting 2%. Others are getting 5%. Still others are getting 10%.

It’s more about the gross unfairness of the system. Some people get screwed over and over again - through no fault of their own. Other people get rewarded over and over again for giving the minimal efforts. It's a ridiculous system. It's broken.

Kongai's only available reward system is arbitrary, inconsistent and random -- they are all hallmarks of a very badly designed and implemented reward system.

[xAS]

having fun poking the badger?? wat??


Pretty much.

[ahippie]

guys i thought of the idea maybe if its 3% for a drop when u win maybe some arent that good and they lose alot more so to keep them intnerested maybe we could throw in a 1% drop for a lose or something like that. not a great chance but people who cant seem to win a lot still have something of a chance

[The_Round_Peg]

Theoretically, it's entirely possible that some people have played hundreds of matches and not won a single card, and other people keep getting card drops for every other win.

In fact, theoretically, under the current system, this can very well happen: if a large enough sample of people play Kongai, then a few of them will never ever get a card from winning hundreds of matches - that's NEVER. Under the broken system currently being used by Kongai, that is actually a theoretical an statistical possibility.

Of course, there are other players who will keep winning cards at every other wins, and their averages will even out those other people who got screwed. That's how Kongregate claims it has a "3%" or "5%" card drop rate. It's a farce if you ask me.

How is that system not flawed and broken?

[ShigityShank]

Kongai has basically wasted my time.

I only had to get to page 2 before this statement made me realize this thread was doing the same thing to me. Thanks, now I can ignore it!

[garcia1000]

It's not fun because I'm not getting rewards for winning. Let me give you a bit of hint here:

The point of playing and winning in games is to feel rewarded, to be positively reinforced for achievements. In Diablo and WoW, you feel rewarded when you level up, because you earn points to build a better character. Even if you don’t get random item, you still earn money and experience that you can use to build a better character. That’s a very consistent and predictable positive reinforcement cycle.

It’s basic psychology. It’s like a mouse in a maze, and a researcher rewards the mouse with cheeses for going the right direction and turning the right switch. It’s the same basic underlying principle that drives game design, i.e., the reward or payoff system. It’s consistent and predictable positive reinforcement. That’s a main point of gaming and what makes gaming fun: people want to feel being positively reinforced because that’s gratifying.

In Kongai, when you win and don’t get cards, what rewards are you getting? NOTHING. Gaining levels or ranks in Kongai doesn’t give you any reward. Winning by itself doesn’t give you any consistent reward. When you don’t get card drops for winning over and over again, that’s mean you’re NOT getting any reward, and you're being NEGATIVELY reinforced, and it's NOT fun.

Obviously whoever designed the reward system in Kongai doesn’t know a darn thing about game design (or psychology for that matter.) I’d wager he doesn’t play too many games himself either.

Some guy takes Psych 101, learns about variable reinforcement, now he really knows his stuff!!

[snarles]

The very people complaining about the low card rates are the ones who are proving Kongregate right:

"OMG WTF is with this crappy card drop, now in order to fulfill my obsessive compulsive urge to collect everything I will have to visit Kongregate five times every day in order to do all the challenges and to play Kongai thereby driving up the site traffic and potential profitibility of Kongregate.com! IT DOESN'T MAKE ANY SENSE!!"

[Penney]

I only had to get to page 2 before this statement made me realize this thread was doing the same thing to me. Thanks, now I can ignore it!

I agree with this guy. If its fun, think positive and continue on. If its not fun at the core, then just quit and do something else that is fun instead.

Don't play the game because you want to advance like in an RPG. Its not linear like that, everyone doesn't have to get the same 2000 exp to level up.

If it was up to me I would put a hard cap of 35 or 40 on wins before you get a card, but it's not. Maybe it will be like that in the future, maybe it won't. It won't affect my decision whether or not to play the game, however.

Penney

[ShigityShank]

Some guy takes Psych 101, learns about variable reinforcement, now he really knows his stuff!!
more likely just downloaded the powerpoint so he could skip the lecture.


Also, The_Round_Peg, I don't usually read the Kong forums too often, but seeing this and another thread you started repeated there is stupid, especially since they are both Kongregate-side problems. And considering how ultimately silly the complaints are, I'm going to ignore any further threads you start.

[ChadMiller]

Round Peg. I actually agree with improving the unlock system (search this forum for "Composing a Letter to Kongregate") but some of your arguments are just out there:

It's not fun because I'm not getting rewards for winning. Let me give you a bit of hint here:

So, basically, what you're saying is that, Kongai is a game that's not fun except it would be fun if it gave you rewards that are only useful for playing more Kongai? What?

Theoretically, it's entirely possible that some people have played hundreds of matches and not won a single card, and other people keep getting card drops for every other win.

It's also theoretically possible that you can miss every single attack over the course of every single game you ever play from now on, guess you should just quit forever...

[jmdt]

If it makes you feel better, I have 8 cards from 121 wins for 6.6%.

Even more interesting, my friend started a profile and got a card in each of his first six victories. Another got 7 cards in 12 games. These people had no cards (no challenge cards or starters) though so it is justified for them to get them. Think of it as a way to draw new players to Kongai.

[Penney]

If it makes you feel better, I have 8 cards from 121 wins for 6.6%.

Even more interesting, my friend started a profile and got a card in each of his first six victories. Another got 7 cards in 12 games. These people had no cards (no challenge cards or starters) though so it is justified for them to get them. Think of it as a way to draw new players to Kongai.

Its pretty well established that the drop rate if you have 9 or less cards is upwards of 40 or 50%.

The problem is that most people pass this before they even start playing due to challenges from other games and starters.

- Edit - That wouldn't be much of a problem except that stuff like Caltrops, Amaya, Andromeda, and Yellow Rock (most of the recent challenges) are pretty much guaranteed to be worse than any random card you would otherwise win in 2 or 3 games instead.

Penney

[CMiner]

What I find most funny about this whole thing is that he is insisting that a random number generator is arbitrary and unfair.

Randomness is fair, period. Everyone, with x# of cards, has exactly the same chance as everyone else with x# of cards. 'Unfair' would be if my account was programmed to have a 10% chance of a card on each win, and his was given a 1% chance.

According to the fundamental argument presented here, the very foundation of combat in Kongai is unfair, because it is based on % chances. Statistically, some people might hit 1000/1000 with a 90% hit chance attack, and some people will hit 0/1000. According to this argument, Kongai's combat system is "arbitrary, inconsistent and random -- they are all hallmarks of a very badly designed and implemented" combat "system."

On the subject of level based wins: Jack_Attack currently leads all time wins with 643, and he is only level 15 (or 16). Let's assume 16, + 3 starters, that equals 19 out of 46 cards. In 650 wins. And he probably has 100-150 wins left till his next level, and even more after that. I'll take my chances with the random drop %, thank you.

But just so no one thinks I'm a noob hating, doesn't-want-anyone-else-to-have-cards person, I've added my arguments to letting new players pick 5-ish starter cards, so they can have more than 1 deck, or at least a nearly complete deck, right off the bat.

But back to the main subject at hand:


The drop % system is unfair.
Random # generators are fair, because everyone has the exact same % chance. 'Fair' does not mean everyone progresses at the same rate, fair means everyone has the same -chance- to progress at the same rate.
Cards by level is better.
640 wins = level 16 = 16 cards, and the number of wins needed for the next level increase constantly, just like in WoW with XP. Also, card inflation: The designers, who do know a thing or two about game design, don't want everyone to have every card within a month of playing, they want things to be extended, so that finally getting every card is an achievement to be proud of, not something that every single person does with hardly any effort.
Kongai punishes winning and getting high levels because people won't play you.
Ranked matches.
Kongai is not fun unless you are constantly getting new cards.
This is based on your definition of fun. I have fun seeing whether or not I can beat the other person. You have fun by getting cards. That's perfectly fine. I don't like WoW because I feel there isn't enough variety (A Pally is a Pally is a Pally, with only what, 3 possible different types of paladin you can be?). I prefer Guild Wars, where there are dozens of different possible combinations for every class. Does that mean that WoW's system is terrible and broken and unfair and made by someone who knows nothing about game design? No. It just doesn't fit my definition of fun. Same thing with you and Kongai.

[The_Round_Peg]

Some guy takes Psych 101, learns about variable reinforcement, now he really knows his stuff!!
Variable reinforcement causes variable behavior, dumbass. It engenders psychotic and unpredictable behaviors. It is generally recognized that psychos grew up in households whose parents use variable reinforcement (often abuses for no reason.)

A good reward system uses positive reinforcement that's CONSISTENT, a good punishment system uses negative reinforcement that's CONSISTENT. Kongai's system is INCONSISTENT.

Rewards should be consistent, predictable and level — FOR EVERYONE.

Not some people get 2%. Others are getting 5%. Still others are getting 10%. They say the the average drop rate is 3%, but behind that number, some people are getting screwed for winning, while others are being rewarded for giving the minimal efforts. That's an inconsistent and broken system.

I have no problem with EVERYONE getting the same drop rate -- but they are NOT. Some people get higher drop rates, and some people get lower drop rates. And Kongai averages those people and get an average drop rate. But EVERYONE is NOT getting the same drop rate. If everyone at the same level (with the same number of cards) are guaranteed to get 3 cards out of 100 cards - no one get more, no one get less - then it's fair and I'm fine with it.

[The_Round_Peg]

Randomness is fair, period. Everyone, with x# of cards, has exactly the same chance as everyone else with x# of cards.
WRONG. Everyone does NOT have the exact same chance as everyone else even when they have the same number of cards.

Some people end up getting 1% drop rate. Some people have 2%. Others have 5%. Still others have 10%.

And then Kongai averages all those people's drop rates and get a 3% for everyone. The problem is that behind that average, some people are getting screwed, while others are getting rewarded for the minimal efforts.

That's the problem. NOT everyone is getting the same chance. It's a 3-percent random drop across different people, not 3 percent for each person. Do you know the difference between the two? "Across different people" and "for each person"?


640 wins = level 16 = 16 cards, and the number of wins needed for the next level increase constantly, just like in WoW with XP. Also, card inflation: The designers, who do know a thing or two about game design, don't want everyone to have every card within a month of playing, they want things to be extended, so that finally getting every card is an achievement to be proud of, not something that every single person does with hardly any effort.
So. YOU just said "getting every card is an achievement to be proud of."

So, if I keep wining and winning 200+ games, and I only got 4 cards, and some other dudes won only 50 games and got 10 cards, and we both started with the same numbers of cards. Isn't that a problem?

Because I am "achieving," and I'm getting screwed and not getting cards.

So, if someone plays fewer than 120 matches and has already won all the cards because of LUCK, is that card inflation?

Ranked Matches.
Very few people played Ranked Matches. At any time, you get fewer than 30 players in Ranked Matches. Often, you get fewer than 12. And most of those pairs are taken (already playing with each other.)

Which means, if you have played Ranked Matches, you would know that looking for an opponent to become available for Ranked Matches is a long wait and hassle. I often waited a few minutes just to find someone to play in Ranked Matches -- personally, I say it's a waste of time to wait for and find an opponent until we have more people playing Ranked Matches. I have other better things to do than to sit around to wait for an opponent to show up.

This is based on your definition of fun. I have fun seeing whether or not I can beat the other person. You have fun by getting cards. That's perfectly fine. I don't like WoW because I feel there isn't enough variety (A Pally is a Pally is a Pally, with only what, 3 possible different types of paladin you can be?). I prefer Guild Wars, where there are dozens of different possible combinations for every class. Does that mean that WoW's system is terrible and broken and unfair and made by someone who knows nothing about game design? No. It just doesn't fit my definition of fun. Same thing with you and Kongai.

You should go read the comments under Kongai and discussions in Kongregate forums sometimes. A LOT, A LOT, A LOT, A LOT of people - not just me - are frustrated and saying that the card drop system is just plain broken. I'm sure you know about it already.

Of course, a lot of people think WoW is fun and better than Guild Wars and disagree with you. In fact, millions more of people think so and disagree with you.

[MaddAddams]

WRONG. Everyone does NOT have the exact same chance as everyone else even when they have the same number of cards.

Some people end up getting 1% drop rate. Some people have 2%. Others have 5%. Still others have 10%.

And then Kongai averages all those people's drop rates and get a 3% for everyone. The problem is that behind that average, some people are getting screwed, while others are getting rewarded for the minimal efforts.

You could do well to have a true-blue statistics course before you start saying funky things like this.

[EsIeX3]

A LOT, A LOT, A LOT, A LOT of people - not just me - are frustrated and saying that the card drop system is just plain broken. I'm sure you know about it already.

I don't read the comments much, but the forums don't indicate much complaint about kongai's card drop rate.

[Claytus]

Some guy takes Psych 101, learns about variable reinforcement, now he really knows his stuff!!

I like how his entire example is not just describing variable reinforcement... he describes how it's the only thing important to him about the game. It's like a drug addict sitting around going "Oh yeah, I'm totally addicted... and it's AWESOME!".

Seriously, dude... if you can't come up with a single reason to play the game except earning cards... maybe you should just quit now while you're ahead.

[The_Round_Peg]

I don't read the comments much, but the forums don't indicate much complaint about kongai's card drop rate.
I'm not going to accuse you of lying to defend Kongai; I'm just going assume that you've missed all the following threads. They are just the threads with keyword "Kongai" in their title and specifically complaints about the card system. They are all from just ONE week. None of them was started by me, and I haven't participated in most of those discussions:

Get rid of the Kongai droprate
http://www.kongregate.com/forums/1/topics/15903

plz Put Card Trading Into Kongai
http://www.kongregate.com/forums/1/topics/15888

The Kongai card earning system is completely screwed up
http://www.kongregate.com/forums/1/topics/11469

kongai ideas:what do you want to see or see fixed in kongai?
http://www.kongregate.com/forums/1/topics/15120

The Kongai 100 win - 0 card Club
http://www.kongregate.com/forums/1/topics/14002

Kongai Card Earning System Tweaks? + How to Quote?
http://www.kongregate.com/forums/1/topics/13899

what do you want fixed or added to kongai?
http://www.kongregate.com/forums/3/topics/15121

There are more threads that have complaints about the card system, but they don't have the searchable "Kongai" in titles, or the OPs do not specifically talk about the card system in the OP. For example, a thread "Kongai Criticism" is filled with complaints about the card drop, but the OP does not mention it so I skipped it.

[ShigityShank]

WRONG. Everyone does NOT have the exact same chance as everyone else even when they have the same number of cards.

Some people end up getting 1% drop rate. Some people have 2%. Others have 5%. Still others have 10%.

So poker is an unfair game because everybody doesn't get the same number of pocket aces in 100 hands?

I often waited a few minutes just to find someone to play in Ranked Matches -- personally, I say it's a waste of time to wait for and find an opponent until we have more people playing Ranked Matches. I have other better things to do than to sit around to wait for an opponent to show up.

But you don't have anything better to do than boohooing about how unfair things are?

[The_Round_Peg]

Seriously, dude... if you can't come up with a single reason to play the game except earning cards... maybe you should just quit now while you're ahead.
There are good reasons to play the game, otherwise I would have played over 100+ matches, but my purpose here is to point out the VERY, VERY serious problem with Kongai. And those good reasons expired for me a long time ago.

Even before I reached 180+ wins, I had already become very, very frustrated with the game (and bored with not getting any new cards.) However, I persisted and gave the game another chance and another chance because I was hoping that I would win more cards soon to even out my numbers.

BUT, at some point, I had to realize that the system is just plain broken, and it's just not worth my time to keep on playing and hoping - because the reward system is inconsistent, unreliable and random, I have no way of knowing for sure if I'd ever get another card; I could have very well played another 100 matches and not won any card.

I would have stopped at about 100 matches if not for my false hope. I have have actually stopped playing Kongai, this time probably for good. I quit once until someone told me that Kongai had an update that fixed the card drop problem and he got a couple cards since the update, but obviously he's wrong. Not playing it until I'm sure the problem is fixed.

[snarles]

I will bet you $500 that you will win a card after 100 wins.

[The_Round_Peg]

So poker is an unfair game because everybody doesn't get the same number of pocket aces in 100 hands?
This is not a poker, and you're using a bad analogy.

Here's the appropriate analogy:

Four players playing the card game (Poker, whatever.) They randomly give out different numbers of cards to different players. By random luck,

Player 1 get 8 cards.
Player 2 get 2 cards.
Player 3 get 6 cards.
Player 4 get 4 cards.

On average, every player has 5 cards.

So, now some of you are saying, "Well, that's perfectly fair! Because they have an average of 5 cards each! Player 2 should keep playing and stop complaining, because in the next game, player 2 has a chance of getting 8 cards! Keep playing!"

That's Kongai.

[The_Round_Peg]

I will bet you $500 that you will win a card after 100 wins.
You have already lost. I didn't get a card from between about 70 and about 170 wins.

But of course, you're not going to send me $500.

[snarles]

In case I wasn't clear, your next 100 wins. I didn't spell that out because it's pretty obvious that you'd never offer a bet to someone who already knew the outcome.

[The_Round_Peg]

In case I wasn't clear, your next 100 wins. I didn't spell that out because it's pretty obvious that you'd never offer a bet to someone who already knew the outcome.
That's the thing: winning cards in Kongai is like winning a lottery.

And using a lottery as a reward system (or a penalty system) is NEVER fair. It's a roll of the dice to decide if someone should be rewarded or penalized.

It's like the old days using a lottery to pick which village girl would be sacrifice to the monster. It's only the families that had dodged or cheated the system that said the system is perfectly fair. You guys are telling the families that had lost their daughters that the system is fair and they should stop complaining.

[snarles]

Nobody is forcing you to play this lottery.

[The_Round_Peg]

Nobody is forcing you to play this lottery.
In case you missed my previous post, I'm already not.

At 180+ wins and only 4 cards, it's time for me to stop instead of keep being screwed by Kongai.

[Claytus]

Even before I reached 180+ wins, I had already become very, very frustrated with the game (and bored with not getting any new cards.) However, I persisted and gave the game another chance and another chance because I was hoping that I would win more cards soon to even out my numbers.


You could, you know... earn cards from the weekly challenges. Which is 100% consistent, and takes much less time per card earned...

It's not like winning really needed to give a reward at all, it's just nice way to let people who already play a lot be able to mix things up a little more, especially if they dislike other flash games. By your logic, we might as well just set the drop rate to zero, and then there's never card inflation, and the system is completely fair even by your weird definition that doesn't actually include what the word "fair" really means.

[suiraclaw]

If it's worth anything, I agree with the round peg that winning cards should be more consistent, like 1 card after 33 matches. I don't give my opinion on the subject of wether you should earn cards more often or not.

[The_Round_Peg]

You could, you know... earn cards from the weekly challenges. Which is 100% consistent, and takes much less time per card earned...
That's what I'm doing now. I've stopped playing Kongai and just played challenges for the cards.


By your logic, we might as well just set the drop rate to zero, and then there's never card inflation, and the system is completely fair even by your weird definition that doesn't actually include what the word "fair" really means.
Yes, ZERO card drop -- for EVERYONE, not just a few players but not other -- would be perfectly fair.

And to be fair, let's take away what everyone has won from matches, because they got it unfairly from a broken system.

What's fair?

Winning rewards should not be random. It be consistent, predictable and level — FOR EVERYONE.

A good reward system should be based on merits alone, not some random roll of 100-sided dice.

As I've said:

The problem here is some people are getting 2 percent. Others are getting 5 percent. Still others are getting 10 percent.

It’s more about the gross unfairness of the system.

Some people get screwed over and over again – through no fault of their own. Other people get rewarded over and over again for giving the minimal efforts.

Supposedly the average drop rate is 3 percent, but behind that number, some people get screwed, while others get rewarded for minimal efforts. It’s a ridiculous system. It’s broken.

Kongai’s only available reward system is arbitrary, inconsistent and random—they are all hallmarks of a very badly designed and implemented reward system.

[EsIeX3]

Why are we continuing this? This should really only be in the kongregate forums, not here. Sirlin has no control over the card drop rate. This forum should be about balance and not about how many cards you have.

[ShigityShank]

This is not a poker
Pick whichever response you like:
1) You're right. You should never compare two things that are not the exact same.
2) That's the first correct thing you've said this entire post.
3) Wait...this isn't poker?

and you're using a bad analogy.
You are saying that the card drop rate (in poker, the cards dealt to you) is unfair because everyone doesn't get the same rate even when they have the same % chance to win a card (pocket aces per 100 hands). Do you understand now?

If you still don't think that's valid, how about this:
In one hand, Player 1 has AA and Player 2 has 27.
Board is 34789
Player 1 wins $100
Next hand, Player 1 has 27 and Player 2 has AA
Board is 34789
Player 2 wins $5
You're arguing , in effect, that poker is unfair because 2 players had the exact same cards (i.e. the same % chance to win the reward), but one was rewarded more than the other.


Here's the appropriate analogy:

I see how that analogy makes sense to you. But it's not a valid comparison.
You're comparing a change in the rules of a game to the reward you receive.

[ShigityShank]

Why are we continuing this? This should really only be in the kongregate forums, not here. Sirlin has no control over the card drop rate. This forum should be about balance and not about how many cards you have.

Oh, don't worry, he made sure to crosspost it there: http://www.kongregate.com/forums/1/topics/15835
Luckily, the denizens of that forum feel the same way we do.
Unluckily, The_Round_Peg is just as dense there as he is here.

[CMiner]

Debate me, don't try and insult me. You will fail, simply because your opinion of -me- does not matter. It's the facts of the argument we are, or should be, discussing.

Drop %:

If you and I have the same # of cards, then we will have the same % chance of getting a card on our next win. Unless you have some source of information that is telling you that the code itself for the % chance of getting a card is different between different people with the same # of cards, then your argument of a % drop chance being unfair is wrong, simply by the definition of the words 'fair' and 'random'. For example, if you and I both have 10 cards, and we go look at the code section where it has the % chance for us to get a card on the next win, it will be a 10% for both of us.

This does not mean that we will both consistently get 1 card in 10 wins. Some people will, on a 1-100 roll, get between 90-100 ten times in a row, and so win 10 cards. Others will get between 1-89 ten times in a row, and so win no cards. That does not mean the system is unfair, or that people with the same # of cards have different drop rates. It just means that person A got very lucky, and person B was unlucky.

Also, as other people have stated, the random drop % is tempered by the weekly challenges. A set goal, with no randomness, that when achieved, gives a card. This is consistent, predictable and level. No, you can't get every card through challenges, not without waiting for a long while, but you're not supposed to be limited to one method or the other.

Card Inflation/All cards:
So, if I keep wining and winning 200+ games, and I only got 4 cards, and some other dudes won only 50 games and got 10 cards, and we both started with the same numbers of cards. Isn't that a problem?

Because I am "achieving," and I'm getting screwed and not getting cards.

You just got unlucky, not because of any 'achieving'. Very unlucky, granted, but again the logic of bad luck = bad game system, applied to the game itself rather than card drops, means that the entire game is broken. You may think that it is, but that's not my point. My point is that when people, especially here on Kongai, don't get what they want, as fast as they want, they tend to complain that the system is broken.

So, if someone plays fewer than 120 matches and has already won all the cards because of LUCK, is that card inflation?

This rarely happens. But yes, it is.

Ranked Matches:

So, your argument is that you and others don't go to Ranked because there aren't enough people there, and that you won't go to ranked till there are more people there?

A) You are helping the problem continue by avoiding ranked, thus lowering the number of people playing it, thus contributing to the 'Not many people are playing Ranked, I won't either' mentality.

B) This doesn't address the reason I brought up ranked: You complained that the Kongai system punishes you for having a high level because people won't play you. Ranked matches don't let people flee in fear of your level.

Definition of Fun:

You should go read the comments under Kongai and discussions in Kongregate forums sometimes. A LOT, A LOT, A LOT, A LOT of people - not just me - are frustrated and saying that the card drop system is just plain broken. I'm sure you know about it already.

Frustrated people does not automatically mean the system is broken. It certainly means that the system needs to be looked at, but does not directly equal a broken system.

Of course, a lot of people think WoW is fun and better than Guild Wars and disagree with you. In fact, millions more of people think so and disagree with you.

I'd still have fun if -billions- of people disagreed with me. That's my point, that just because others don't think its fun, doesn't not mean its not fun for me, and doesn't necessarily mean that it's broken.



Also, you shouldn't complain about people's analogies, then compare the Kongai drop system to families sacrificing their daughters, and compare us who think the Kongai system is fair to people who would be "telling the families that had lost their daughters that the system is fair and they should stop complaining." Oh, and if every family had the same chance of having their daughter sacrificed in the lottery, yes, that would be 'fair'.


Winning rewards should not be random. It be consistent, predictable and level — FOR EVERYONE.

A good reward system should be based on merits alone, not some random roll of 100-sided dice.

This is an -opinion-, not fact. Perfect point, WoW, a system you agree that millions of people believe is fun. Look at the drop % for equipment. Same % chance for all players/groups upon killing a monster. But millions of people still like it, and think that it is a good game.




Lastly, in the spirit of testing, I created a new account and went through a few games. 25 wins, 6 cards gained. Granted, 1 user is a small sample, especially compared to "A LOT, A LOT, A LOT, A LOT of people", but I've also found that people who are satisfied with how a system is working, rarely go onto forums to voice their satisfaction. When I get the chance, I'll conduct a few surveys in the game itself to see what people say.

[Penney]

Lastly, in the spirit of testing, I created a new account and went through a few games. 25 wins, 6 cards gained. Granted, 1 user is a small sample, especially compared to "A LOT, A LOT, A LOT, A LOT of people", but I've also found that people who are satisfied with how a system is working, rarely go onto forums to voice their satisfaction. When I get the chance, I'll conduct a few surveys in the game itself to see what people say.

That sounds statistically low, as strange as it sounds. I have seen a lot of people play random all until they got 10 cards. The low end seems to take about 25 winss and the high end is the mid 40s.

The card drop rate if you have 9 or less cards is something on the order of 10 to 15 times greater than the drop rate if you have 10 or more cards. About 40% to about 3%.

When people are complaining about drop rates they only mean the "I have 10 or more cards" drop rates. You cant compare the two. Testing with less than 10 is bound to skew results drastically.

Penney

[Claytus]

The problem here is some people are getting 2 percent. Others are getting 5 percent. Still others are getting 10 percent.


L2Math, nub >.>

Everyone gets 3% (or more, depending on how few cards they have, remember some variation is intentional). That 3% is applied *per win*, and was always advertised as such. It is not a guarantee of a minimum number of cards earned in a particular amount of time. Go ahead and argue for consistency if you'd like, but your attempts to discuss the issue in terms of probability and/or statistics so far are all just making you look like a moron, seriously.

[ahippie]

so its possible that someone with 12 wins has won more cards then me with 190 wins? cause it happend X_X

[Claytus]

so its possible that someone with 12 wins has won more cards then me with 190 wins? cause it happend X_X

Assuming you started playing before the change to variable win rates, and owned a reasonably high amount of cards before the change occured (so you get about a constant 3%). And assuming Penney is right, and <10 cards is now close to a 40% win chance...

Then yes, it's quite possible. Expected value of 3% over 190 wins is ~5. And expected value of 40% over 12 wins is also ~5.

[Penney]

Its what I always tell people. The best way to get a good playable account is to:

1) Start with 0 cards.
2) Win 35-40 matches average in Random All to get 10 cards.
3) Do available challenges
4) Pick starters.

As much as possible I try to advise people to follow that pattern. I hate seeing people with 190 wins and a really sad account.

The worst thing you can do in this game is to come in with 7 cards from challenges and then pick 3 starters and start playing.

Penney

[ChadMiller]

Not some people get 2%. Others are getting 5%. Still others are getting 10%. They say the the average drop rate is 3%, but behind that number, some people are getting screwed for winning, while others are being rewarded for giving the minimal efforts. That's an inconsistent and broken system.

I see this thread has degenerated into the usual Round Peg method of "blatantly making things up." How unfortunate.

Very few people played Ranked Matches. At any time, you get fewer than 30 players in Ranked Matches. Often, you get fewer than 12. And most of those pairs are taken (already playing with each other.)

I have played nothing but ranked since ranked matches existed and never had trouble getting a game. You only play against one opponent at a time anyway.

Of course, a lot of people think WoW is fun and better than Guild Wars and disagree with you.

How many PvP players like WoW better than GW? That's the important question because Kongai doesn't have a single-player mode to speak of.

To answer my own rhetorical question, WoW now has special tournament servers in which you can buy geared 70s and skip the grind outright. Because the "earning 'rewards' for the sole purpose of earning more 'rewards'" model is completely at odds with the goals of a PvP game. Your comparison fails.

PS: Casinos make a lot more money than arcades, by your logic I guess that proves random rewards are a good idea after all!

[ChadMiller]

Its what I always tell people. The best way to get a good playable account is to:

1) Start with 0 cards.
2) Win 35-40 matches average in Random All to get 10 cards.
3) Do available challenges
4) Pick starters.

As much as possible I try to advise people to follow that pattern. I hate seeing people with 190 wins and a really sad account.

The worst thing you can do in this game is to come in with 7 cards from challenges and then pick 3 starters and start playing.

Penney

This is why more than anything the game needs resettable starters.

I still think it's ridiculous that "don't pick your starters when you're starting" is sound advice.

[garcia1000]

Variable reinforcement causes variable behavior, dumbass. It engenders psychotic and unpredictable behaviors. It is generally recognized that psychos grew up in households whose parents use variable reinforcement (often abuses for no reason.)

A good reward system uses positive reinforcement that's CONSISTENT, a good punishment system uses negative reinforcement that's CONSISTENT. Kongai's system is INCONSISTENT.


oic (http://psychology.about.com/od/vindex/g/def_variablerat.htm)

"A good reward system uses positive reinforcement that's CONSISTENT"

[garcia1000]

Apparently this turned into "Some guy didn't take Statistics 101, didn't learn anything about expected value, and now really doesn't know any of his stuff!"

[DredNicolson]

And also seems to be mired quite deeply in the Texas Sharpshooter Fallacy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_sharpshooter_fallacy).

Attempting to use the results of an already occurred random sequence to prove that the % chance of that sequence occuring was higher than it actually was, is like painting a bulls-eye around the bullet holes after you've fired the shots.

[Penney]

This is why more than anything the game needs resettable starters.

I still think it's ridiculous that "don't pick your starters when you're starting" is sound advice.

I 100% agree with you, but I gave up hoping the system was going to change and just adapted to it.

I used to think picking starters when you were just starting was the cool thing to do too, then I learned better.

Penney

[ahippie]

maybe we should chance the name to finishers XD
bad joke... everyone just keep on posting...;)

[Penney]

I would just like to see starter cards not being offered till after - say - 30 game wins.

They could change the name to "free cards given once you learned how to play the game ers".

Penney

[tuffgong]

Hi there,
I've played 55 games and have 13 cards 5 of which I recieved from game drops. Pretty lucky it seems.

[Claytus]

maybe we should chance the name to finishers XD
bad joke... everyone just keep on posting...;)

I disagree, let's all stop posting in this thread. Especially round_peg who seems to come up with a new logical fallacy every time he tries to frame an argument >.> (Target #2 can be Penney's Signature that for some reason *isn't* actually setup as a signature >.>)


Hi there,
I've played 55 games and have 13 cards 5 of which I recieved from game drops. Pretty lucky it seems.


No, this actually sounds slightly below average, not lucky at all. It's hard to do anything like reliable math, given we don't know the exact % win rate per amount of cards, and you also didn't say how many cards you already owned *when* you got your cards from wins... but I would still guess that you're on the low end.

[The_Round_Peg]

I only had to get to page 2 before this statement made me realize this thread was doing the same thing to me. Thanks, now I can ignore it!
Once.
Also, The_Round_Peg, I don't usually read the Kong forums too often, but seeing this and another thread you started repeated there is stupid, especially since they are both Kongregate-side problems. And considering how ultimately silly the complaints are, I'm going to ignore any further threads you start.
You had already said it once, so why did you come back again?

You had already said you wanted to ignore this thread, so please just do it. I didn't put a gun to your head and force you to keep coming back. You didn't have to say the same thing ("I'm going to ignore this thread!") over and over again and keep coming back over and over again. That makes YOU the moron.

And please don't respond, because if you respond that means you're not ignoring it, which makes you even a bigger morn. Just read this and move on.

[The_Round_Peg]

When people are complaining about drop rates they only mean the "I have 10 or more cards" drop rates. You cant compare the two. Testing with less than 10 is bound to skew results drastically.

Penney
That's where you're wrong. I started with 6 cards.

[The_Round_Peg]

L2Math, nub >.>

Everyone gets 3% (or more, depending on how few cards they have, remember some variation is intentional). That 3% is applied *per win*, and was always advertised as such. It is not a guarantee of a minimum number of cards earned in a particular amount of time. Go ahead and argue for consistency if you'd like, but your attempts to discuss the issue in terms of probability and/or statistics so far are all just making you look like a moron, seriously.
Actually Claytus, you're the moron for failing to understand my point (or just lying about it.)

I won 186 matches and got 4 cards. But in practice, my ACTUAL drop rate is 2.15%.

Someone who started with the same number of card as I did won 56 matches and got 5 cards. His ACTUAL drop rate is 8.9%.

Another person won 102 matches and got 2 cards. His ACTUAL drop rate is 1.96%.

Yet another person won 80 matches and got 7 cards. His ACTUAL drop rate is 8.75%.

Everyone actually has a different ACTUAL drop rate. The ACTUAL drop rate is INCONSISTENT for everyone.

Of course, you take the different drop rates from everyone and just average them. But that’s really the wrong way to say if that’s fair or unfair, because the average number does not show the actual situations behind the number. Behind that number, a whole lot of INCONSISTENCIES are going on. Some people are getting screwed and have much lower drop rates. Some people are getting lucky and have much higher drop rates. And the actual drop rates are different for everyone, and your “average of 3%” does not reflect the actual situations.

Some people are very wealthy and earn a few million dollars a year. Some people are dirt poor and earn a few ten thousand dollars a year. But you take the average and say, “well, the average income in America is about $45,000, so everyone is well off!” And you try to convince that everyone is earning $45,000 because that’s what the average shows — but they are ACTUALLY not. You really cannot use the “average” number to reflect individual situations in that matter, because the “average” in this case does NOT represent everyone’s income.

But then, being the idiot you are, you probably failed to see the point.

[The_Round_Peg]

Debate me, don't try and insult me. You will fail, simply because your opinion of -me- does not matter. It's the facts of the argument we are, or should be, discussing.
I noticed people had already started the insults, starting with Garcia. (Scroll back to see who started it first.) Maybe he thinks his "super vet" status gives him the right to start insulting people first.

Once they started, don't expect me to hold back.

Time to go. I'll get back to this tomorrow.

[garcia1000]

I noticed people had already started the insults, starting with Garcia. (Scroll back to see who started it first.) Maybe he thinks his "super vet" status gives him the right to start insulting people first.

Once they started, don't expect me to hold back.

Time to go. I'll get back to this tomorrow.

I look forward to your blistering riposte!

In unrelated news I changed my signature

[garcia1000]

Testing new signature!

[Penney]

That's where you're wrong. I started with 6 cards.

Am I?

A patch changed this so that the regular 3% rate did not apply if you had 9 or less cards. It has not always worked like it does now.

When did you begin your 6 card journey?

Penney

[ChadMiller]

I noticed people had already started the insults, starting with Garcia. (Scroll back to see who started it first.) Maybe he thinks his "super vet" status gives him the right to start insulting people first.

Actually it's the fact that you simultaneously don't know anything but think you know everything. Your comprehension of statistics is laughable, but then again, I shouldn't be surprised given your general stupidity elsewhere. You notice, you've asked most of this forum to just stop reading your posts; maybe you could save everyone the trouble and stop posting them. They're not wanted.

[PureChance]

why do people keeping taking the bait and dragging this conversation out?

just curious...

morbid curiosity on how many times someone can say the same thing again and again and again?? having fun poking the badger?? wat??

five pages later.... has anything changed or anything new said since page 2?

not that it hasn't been enjoyable having something to read ever since work blocked kongregate access :mad:

[ShigityShank]

I really hope this dude is just trolling, because if he's not it means he's actually as dumb as he sounds.

Or maybe he's just trying to get the longest replied-to thread going. He's already quadruple-posting.

[Claytus]

Of course, you take the different drop rates from everyone and just average them. But that’s really the wrong way to say if that’s fair or unfair, because the average number does not show the actual situations behind the number. Behind that number, a whole lot of INCONSISTENCIES are going on. Some people are getting screwed and have much lower drop rates. Some people are getting lucky and have much higher drop rates. And the actual drop rates are different for everyone, and your “average of 3%” does not reflect the actual situations.


No, no, no... a thousand times now. You're once again simply displaying that you don't actually know how any of this math works. You do *not* average the numbers to get a 3% drop rate. What you get is actually a 3% chance of winning a card on every single individual win that you get. This does not convert to any particular actual drop rate given you're using anything less than an infinite number of wins as a data pool.

Everyone else in the worlds understands this... the math was designed, and advertised to specifically *not* guarantee a common actual drop rate. Once again, feel free to argue for consistency if you'd like, but claiming that the existing system is not working as intended just makes it clear that you don't understand what the intent was in the first place.

(Also: I love how your only answer to all the math complaints so far has been to write up the exact same wrong thing you wrote in the first place, while calling everyone who disagreed with you an idiot. It's like, it's not enough to be a noob at Kongai, and have poor academics... have you now set out to prove you don't know how to use forums either?)

[jasey]

Actually Claytus, you're the moron for failing to understand my point (or just lying about it.)

I won 186 matches and got 4 cards. But in practice, my ACTUAL drop rate is 2.15%.

Someone who started with the same number of card as I did won 56 matches and got 5 cards. His ACTUAL drop rate is 0.89%.

Another person won 102 matches and got 2 cards. His ACTUAL drop rate is 1.96%.

Yet another person won 80 matches and got 7 cards. His ACTUAL drop rate is 8.75%.

Everyone actually has a different ACTUAL drop rate. The ACTUAL drop rate is INCONSISTENT for everyone.


I think we can tell who the REAL moron is from this math (5/56 is NOT 0.89%)
And everyone has the same actual drop rate if they have the same amount of cards, The_Round_Peg, you just don't understand the difference between probability and outcome. Probability is: the relative possibility that an event will occur. Outcome is: a final product or end result.

I really hope this dude is just trolling, because if he's not it means he's actually as dumb as he sounds.

Or maybe he's just trying to get the longest replied-to thread going. He's already quadruple-posting.

I think he's trolling AND as dumb as he sounds.

[ShigityShank]

Hey Peggers,

Here's what it looks like when someone who is calm, rational, and knows what the hell he's talking about makes a case.: http://www.kongregate.com/forums/1/topics/16051

[The_Round_Peg]

Just to serve as a warning:

I do not want a “pay for cards” system for Kongai. I don’t want someone swooping down on this site with a credit card and snapping up the complete collection of cards in 15 seconds after I’ve spent all of my time (weeks, months) trying to acquire the cards.

Does that make your e-peen smaller, or, like, what is your objection?

I don’t mind having a pay-for-card system as ambushbug suggested, although personally I wouldn’t participate in it and pay for cards.

BUT Garcia needs to watch he says in forums and stops insulting people for no reason (not just here and not just me) because he thinks he’s a “vet” and better than everyone else. Because I’ve noticed Garcia always START insulting people FIRST.

Garcia, you do it one more time, and I’ll start calling you an Amigo and all sort of slurs and names that suit you.


P.S. Variable Reinforcement and Variable-Ratio Schedule are DIFFERENT TOPICS. Here (http://www.clickandtreat.com/ff08.htm). They are NOT the same. It's you who needs to take Psych 101 or whatever.

[The_Round_Peg]

Am I?

A patch changed this so that the regular 3% rate did not apply if you had 9 or less cards. It has not always worked like it does now.

When did you begin your 6 card journey?

When the game first came out.

That's 6 cards before I picked my 3 starter cards. Back when Kongai first launched, I had to pick 3 starter cards even before I got a chance to look at the game. So I started playing my first matches with 9 cards.

[The_Round_Peg]

Actually it's the fact that you simultaneously don't know anything but think you know everything. Your comprehension of statistics is laughable, but then again, I shouldn't be surprised given your general stupidity elsewhere.
My comprehension of statistics is perfectly fine. BUT the issue here is not statistics, but the issue of fairness and consistency behind the statistics, which you failed to comprehend.

You notice, you've asked most of this forum to just stop reading your posts; maybe you could save everyone the trouble and stop posting them. They're not wanted.
Here's some "comprehension" for you:

It's not me who asked "someone" to stop reading my posts. It's that "someone" who himself said he would just ignore my thread. Three times already. YET he keeps coming back. WTF is with that?

That makes him the moron.

And seriously, if you don't like my thread, you really should just stop reading them. Notice that I've been pretty much ignoring your threads and haven't participated in any of them after I've found out you're a moron. That's the power of free speech - everyone get to say whatever they want, and if you don't like it, you can just ignore whatever they say.

Do you know what is "trolling"? That's when you already know we have issues with each other, yet you persist upon trolling my threads to bait me. That's trolling. I don't troll because I know I don't like you, so I just don't even read your forums and leave you alone.

[Claytus]

Just to serve as a warning:


Hahahaha... you're warning us??? A dude that gets confused every time he runs into a square hole does not make for a threatening visage. Maybe your name really is quite appropriate... your lack of adaptability has astounded and confused the entire Kongai community, bravo.

[ShigityShank]

Garcia, you do it one more time, and I’ll start calling you an Amigo and all sort of slurs and names that suit you.

I'm not sure about this, because I'm not an overt racist, but I'm pretty sure for racial slurs to work, you kinda have to be correct about the person's race.

P.S. Variable Reinforcement and Variable-Ratio Schedule are DIFFERENT TOPICS. Here (http://www.clickandtreat.com/ff08.htm). They are NOT the same. It's you who needs to take Psych 101 or whatever.

I think you're confusing Psych 101 with Puppy Training School. I'm sure they were right next door to each other and you just went into the wrong room. It's a common mistake for people to make. But didn't you think it was weird that everyone else had a dog?


It's not me who asked "someone" to stop reading my posts. It's that "someone" who himself said he would just ignore my thread. Three times already. YET he keeps coming back. WTF is with that?

Yay! This is the first time I've ever had someone intentionally not refer to me by name!


And seriously, if you don't like my thread, you really should just stop reading them. Notice that I've been pretty much ignoring your threads and haven't participated in any of them after I've found out you're a moron. That's the power of free speech - everyone get to say whatever they want, and if you don't like it, you can just ignore whatever they say

Oh believe me, I tried my best to ignore this entire thread. I thought you were one of those little kids you could just ignore and eventually they'd get tired or become distracted by something shiny. But this is the 4th most posted thread in the Kongai forum, and I want to see it make #1. That way you can have the distinction of having pages and pages of your mistakes forever ingrained on the internet.

Atleast until(if?) you realize how stupid the things you've said have been, and edit you're posts away.

[The_Round_Peg]

I think you're confusing Psych 101 with Puppy Training School. I'm sure they were right next door to each other and you just went into the wrong room. It's a common mistake for people to make. But didn't you think it was weird that everyone else had a dog?
In any case, variable reinforcement and variable-ratio schedule are NOT the same. It's ironic that Garcia said I needed Psych 101, but then he immediately showed that he's confused between the two.

And why are you still here? Haven't you said you're going to ignore this thread three times already? That's the first thing you said in here. Yet you still coming back. What's your problem?

Yay! This is the first time I've ever had someone intentionally not refer to me by name!
I didn't even bother to go back and look for your name. I didn't remember your full screen name and I don't particularly even care about you.

But the point is: why are you still here? You did say you were going to ignore me, repeatedly. Yet you still keep coming back.

No excuses. You should just move on. Seriously.

[Penney]

When the game first came out.

That's 6 cards before I picked my 3 starter cards. Back when Kongai first launched, I had to pick 3 starter cards even before I got a chance to look at the game. So I started playing my first matches with 9 cards.

If your 6 were in beta and you had at least 10 by the time beta was over, then you definately could not have partaken in the increased card drop rates for 9 or under cards in the account because that patch was post beta.

I am sorry for your bad timing.

Penney

[The_Round_Peg]

I think we can tell who the REAL moron is from this math (5/56 is NOT 0.89%)
The moron is the one who couldn't tell a typo from a math error.

[The_Round_Peg]

If your 6 were in beta and you had at least 10 by the time beta was over, then you definately could not have partaken in the increased card drop rates for 9 or under cards in the account because that patch was post beta.

I am sorry for your bad timing.

I wasn't in the beta. I don't volunteer for beta tests. People should be paying me to play test their games.

[PureChance]

more popcorn anyone?

just sit back, eat some popcorn and watch the show go on.... and on.... and on....

:rolleyes:

[Claytus]

The moron is the one who couldn't tell a typo from a math error.

Wait... so everytime you've called someone a moron so far it's because you had a typo that they misunderstood in your previous post? Damn, like 90% of what you've written in this thread so far must be just continuous typos then...

[Benoit Haché]

more popcorn anyone?

just sit back, eat some popcorn and watch the show go on.... and on.... and on....

:rolleyes:
Why thank you.

I'm a bit surprised how nobody has said the gut reaction phrase "lol RNG is broken hax". I suppose the girl is trying to attract the boy in a different way, but they won't stop running into walls.

[ShigityShank]

In any case, variable reinforcement and variable-ratio schedule are NOT the same. It's ironic that Garcia said I needed Psych 101, but then he immediately showed that he's confused between the two.

What's really funny is that I've taken plenty of psych courses, and I'd assume that garcia has taken at least one. And ours didn't involve googling "variable reinforcement"

If I could be serious for a second, however, it's clear that you have an incorrect understanding of variable reinforcement and are basing what you know on it from that web page. It's pretty clear that that author is incorrect in his use of the terms "variable reinforcement" and "variable-ratio schedule". His "Random Reinforcement Project" (which he says is "variable reinforcement.is actually a fixed-ratio reinforcement because you are following a guide.

Variable-ratio is a type of variable reinforcement. The ratio is the variable. There's a few other types of variables, such as a variable-interval (which is what a level-up card reward system would be).

garcia (and anyone else who suggested it, sorry I didn't read the whole thread) is correct that Kongai is currently running a variable-ratio reinforcement for card drops. Variable-ratio reinforcement means that the reward is given randomly but averages out to a given value. It also has the greatest number of desired responses over time (greater than fixed-ratio, variable-interval, and fixed-interval).

I'll admit I had to get a little refresher from Wikipedia:Reinforcement (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reinforcement#Simple_schedules)

If you read that and still continue to believe the dog trainer has the correct information, you're hopeless and deserving of all the mockery you receive.

[MaddAddams]

Garcia, you do it one more time, and I’ll start calling you an Amigo and all sort of slurs and names that suit you.
This is the dumbest thing my eyes have ever read.

[pictish]

Guys guys guys. Look look, kongai community is growing up and fitting all the roles and everything.

http://www.sirlin.net/ptw/play-styles/the-snakes/

[jasey]

The moron is the one who couldn't tell a typo from a math error.

I would've thought that .89% would be a typo, but 0.89% (what you put) has that "0" in there. How does a typo explain that?

[Penney]

When the game first came out.

That's 6 cards before I picked my 3 starter cards. Back when Kongai first launched, I had to pick 3 starter cards even before I got a chance to look at the game. So I started playing my first matches with 9 cards.

Excuse me for quoting this a second time.

If you did indeed start after beta you still could have missed it. I am not sure but if I remember right there was a week or two immediately following where the old rules still applied.

Even still, you weren't forced to choose starters. There was always an option to wait till later after beta was over.

In any event, if you started with 9 then you would have only gotten 1 free even if the new rates applied. If you still statistically got screwed, oh well.

I know a lot of people that did worse than both of us.

Penney

[JacobOrLove]

Actually Claytus, you're the moron for failing to understand my point (or just lying about it.)

I won 186 matches and got 4 cards. But in practice, my ACTUAL drop rate is 2.15%.

Someone who started with the same number of card as I did won 56 matches and got 5 cards. His ACTUAL drop rate is 8.9%.

Another person won 102 matches and got 2 cards. His ACTUAL drop rate is 1.96%.

Yet another person won 80 matches and got 7 cards. His ACTUAL drop rate is 8.75%.

Everyone actually has a different ACTUAL drop rate. The ACTUAL drop rate is INCONSISTENT for everyone.

Of course, you take the different drop rates from everyone and just average them. But that’s really the wrong way to say if that’s fair or unfair, because the average number does not show the actual situations behind the number. Behind that number, a whole lot of INCONSISTENCIES are going on. Some people are getting screwed and have much lower drop rates. Some people are getting lucky and have much higher drop rates. And the actual drop rates are different for everyone, and your “average of 3%” does not reflect the actual situations.

Some people are very wealthy and earn a few million dollars a year. Some people are dirt poor and earn a few ten thousand dollars a year. But you take the average and say, “well, the average income in America is about $45,000, so everyone is well off!” And you try to convince that everyone is earning $45,000 because that’s what the average shows — but they are ACTUALLY not. You really cannot use the “average” number to reflect individual situations in that matter, because the “average” in this case does NOT represent everyone’s income.

But then, being the idiot you are, you probably failed to see the point.
I had to register just to explain how probabilities work. Short version: you're making false assumptions.

You agree with me, I hope, that card drop rates are fixed. Clearly, there is no mechanism to give better drops to people who play a lot of games without winning, nor is there one to give fewer cards to people who have already won a bunch.

I'll repeat that. Once someone gets a card, their drop rate does not change. That means they're just as likely to win a card on their next game as they were before. If someone wins two cards, three cards, five cards, they're now still just as likely as to win another as ever.

So let's take two players. Each one has a 3% drop rate (say they both have 10 cards already and 20 games played).

On game 21, player A hits the jackpot and wins a card. Player b does not.

Clearly, player A's ACTUAL drop rate is not 100%. But what if they both play another 100 games? Well, Player B would expect to win about 3 cards (3% drop rate x 100 games = hopefully 3 cards). But player A would ALSO expect to win 3 cards over those 100 games (same 3% drop rate). Now player A has won 4 cards over 101 games, and player B has won 3 cards in 101 games.

Does that mean player A has an ACTUAL drop rate of 4%? Obviously not. He got lucky, but his underlying odds were the same.

Trying to argue after the fact that people's cards won reflect their actual underlying drop rates is wrong, wrong, wrong. It reflects how lucky people have been, but doesn't say much about the underlying numbers that produced that luck.

That said, your strongest example (56 wins/5 cards) has a Chi-Squared value of 6.76, which means there's a 99% chance the underlying odds are not precisely 3%. However, with as many people submitting results as we've had, a few outliers are not enough to reject the general hypothesis. Almost everyone's ACTUAL drop rates are at least 95% consistent with a 3% underlying rate.

And, as people have said, that person seems to have benefited at least slightly from the increased drop rates instituted for new players. If we attribute even a single one of his cards to that higher rate, then his data drops right back to within our confidence level.

Bottom line: all the data presented is consistent with not only an average 3% drop rate, but with every single player having such a rate.

[jst1vaughn]

Tell me this: what's exactly wrong with getting one card per level?

Several things, in my opinion.

1. It appears to me, though I haven't really done the legwork, that levels are gained in a geometric, or at least incremental progression. It takes 10 wins to gain your first level, 20 wins to gain your second level, and so on. If you extend this progression out, it would actually be much less rewarding in the long run to experienced players, especially as new sets come out. After a certain point, your cards available would pretty much calcify, and you'd be back to getting cards only from challenges (which seems to be something you're more or less against).

2. If players are only gaining one card per level, fixed rate, then you'd need to make it a card of your choice to soothe players with higher levels (i.e., if I'm only getting one card per 60 wins, I want it to be something of my choice so I know that I'm not getting screwed with my one card). That's bad for the game in the long run, because random card distribution creates situations where players are forced to experiment with to find the optimal deck for their cards, rather than the optimal deck for all cards that exist. In other words, if people could choose the card that was going to drop, they'd only build decks that had already been proven to win. They'd never experiment with cards that they didn't know they wanted, and never find new combinations.

Theoretically, you could build a system where levels are gained at a flat rate, but then what would the point of levels be? They'd essentially be exactly equal to your wins/10 or whatever, where now there's a level of aspiration and merit involved. It's easy to get to level 2, but to get to level 10 requires a level of dedication exponentially greater.

But now it's too late to completely overhaul the reward system, because Kongregate will have to reset cards for all players with a new reward system. It's just lack of planning on Kongregate's part.

That's two awfully big assumptions. First, there's no reason why they couldn't change the reward system, as I seem to have heard they already changed it once. I don't think the drop rate would ever get better than a fixed 1 card/33 wins, so it's unlikely that existing players would somehow get completely screwed.

Also, I think it's unfair to say that Kongregate had a "lack of planning." They planned things out deliberately so that Kongai would force players to move around the site, increasing traffic to other games, which will induce other Flash game designers to submit their games to Kongregate, which increases overall exposure of the site, which makes them more money. It seems to me that they planned it out all very well, you just don't like the system as it stands.

- Vaughn

[Claytus]

I'll repeat that. Once someone gets a card, their drop rate does not change. That means they're just as likely to win a card on their next game as they were before. If someone wins two cards, three cards, five cards, they're now still just as likely as to win another as ever.

Bottom line: all the data presented is consistent with not only an average 3% drop rate, but with every single player having such a rate.

You're math is correct... but your data is slightly wrong. When someone obtains a card, their drop rate *actually does* change. But, you'd sort of have to be in the in-crowd with Kongai to know that. Kongregate purposely made the decision to apply variable drop rates based upon the number of cards currently owned (drop rate always decreases as you earn cards, and never goes under 3%, even when you own every card, since at that point you can still earn doubles). (Note: round_pegs math was wrong for a fixed drop rate, and it's *even more wrong* for variable drop rates, so all your criticism's were right, just missing one fact.)

Penney: Are you sure? I'm fairly certain there was a small amount of time post-beta when you were forced to pick starters before you were allowed to play a game. That was changed in, like, the first update.

[jst1vaughn]

The point of playing and winning in games is to feel rewarded, to be positively reinforced for achievements. In Diablo and WoW, you feel rewarded when you level up, because you earn points to build a better character. Even if you don’t get random item, you still earn money and experience that you can use to build a better character. That’s a very consistent and predictable positive reinforcement cycle.

This might be the point I disagree with you on most. Maybe I'm getting old, but the point of playing games is not to be rewarded, it's to play the game. Where are the positive reinforcement rewards in chess? Tennis? Tag? Solitaire? The two examples you cite are games that are, basically, barely disguised loot tables. Do X to Y for long enough, get reward Z. Repeat, ad infinitum. They're brilliant examples of self-marketing games, but that doesn't make them the end-all be-all of all games everwhere.

Maybe Kongai doesn't have a massive loot table where you get a card every 3 wins, only that card sucks and is only good when you combine it with 5 other cards, one of which is super impossible to get and only drops on Tuesdays between 10:30 and 12:00 and only if your win total is divisible by 3 and 7 at the same time, but isn't that a feature? One of the apparent design goals is to create a game where more cards /= more wins, just more options. Especially from a CCG, shouldn't that be a goal?

It’s basic psychology. It’s like a mouse in a maze, and a researcher rewards the mouse with cheeses for going the right direction and turning the right switch. It’s the same basic underlying principle that drives game design, i.e., the reward or payoff system. It’s consistent and predictable positive reinforcement. That’s a main point of gaming and what makes gaming fun: people want to feel being positively reinforced because that’s gratifying.

This is either an unintentionally brilliant example, or an incredibly off base one. The whole cheese/mouse experiment was intended to use positive and negative reinforcement to influence the behavior of the mice towards an intended outcome. They wanted to teach the mice to do certain things, and used rewards to train them to do it. What you're asking for is a reward for playing the game, which is not the behavior that the site admins want to reward. They want to reward players for playing games that they feature in challenges, which allows them to do two different things at the same time: inject new cards en masse into the player pool (which allows them to influence the metagame with a properly designed card set) and create large amounts of traffic nearly instantaneously to games that they want you to play.

Do you not see that what you're asking for is directly contrary to the goals of Kongregate in having a game like Kongai on their site? If players were rewarded more for playing Kongai only than for fulfilling challenges, the whole system breaks down, and Kongai becomes a bad investment for the site as a whole. No Kongregate, no Kongai, and that would be a fairly massive bummer.

- Vaughn

[evil_tower]

Btw, did something change with the drop rate?

After launch I was humming along with a pretty solid and consistant drop rate while playing quite a bit. Seemed a comfortable amount.

Then I finally hit 41/46 (lots of challenge cards, quite a few drops) and ever since then its like I hit a brick wall. I don't think I've seen another drop in weeks, and I play quite a few games.

[GorySnake]

21 wins, 6 cards. Pretty good going

[Penney]

You're math is correct... but your data is slightly wrong. When someone obtains a card, their drop rate *actually does* change. But, you'd sort of have to be in the in-crowd with Kongai to know that. Kongregate purposely made the decision to apply variable drop rates based upon the number of cards currently owned (drop rate always decreases as you earn cards, and never goes under 3%, even when you own every card, since at that point you can still earn doubles). (Note: round_pegs math was wrong for a fixed drop rate, and it's *even more wrong* for variable drop rates, so all your criticism's were right, just missing one fact.)

Penney: Are you sure? I'm fairly certain there was a small amount of time post-beta when you were forced to pick starters before you were allowed to play a game. That was changed in, like, the first update.

I could be wrong on if you were forced to pick at any time after beta. If I am wrong, I admit it, my bad. If there was a time, it wasn't very long, but it could have been long enough to screw the guy with the problem.

As for the card drop rates being a variable amount...

Can we get someone who has seen the code to verify this or someone who has actually directly asked someone who has seen the code?

I have heard many times that people think it scales depending on how many cards you have, but all my testing and everyone's testing that I know shows that there is a break at 10 cards with a flat rate under that and a different flat rate over that. I admit that I haven't done millions of tests on this point, but I have done or been involved with at least a dozen tests starting from 0 cards each time. Every time I hear someone talking about drop rates I also make it a point to ask how many cards and wins they have, so the potential data set is not insignificant statistically.

Penney

[ChadMiller]

And seriously, if you don't like my thread, you really should just stop reading them. Notice that I've been pretty much ignoring your threads and haven't participated in any of them after I've found out you're a moron.

lol. This is from the guy who wanted 5 second clocks (http://www.kongregate.com/forums/1/topics/13835?page=5#posts-242990), and then managed to post something even more retarded (http://www.kongregate.com/forums/1/topics/15659#posts-274972).

You can insult the likes of myself and garcia all you want, the truth is that you're not going to sway anyone whose opinion matters around these parts. If you made your outrageous Helene accusation over here my response would have been something more along the lines of "lol wow" because everyone involved would already know how stupid and uninformed it was.

BTW, I will openly admit to having a vendetta here. This forum has one of the highest signal/noise ratios I've ever seen on the internet and you're fucking it up. You talk down to everyone which is hilarious given that most of the people in question are smarter than you. You have very strong opinions and flame everyone who disagrees with you on even the smallest point (http://www.kongregate.com/forums/1/topics/15571?page=1), even though you're usually wrong. Stop ruining a good thing and go back to Kongregate where you can at least kind of blend in with all the other dumb little kids.

[ShigityShank]

I could be wrong on if you were forced to pick at any time after beta. If I am wrong, I admit it, my bad. If there was a time, it wasn't very long, but it could have been long enough to screw the guy with the problem.
There were about three or four days, maybe even a week, where you needed to have 3 characters in order to play. For some people this meant they had to pick starters.

As for the card drop rates being a variable amount...

Can we get someone who has seen the code to verify this or someone who has actually directly asked someone who has seen the code?


I was in chatroom #1 immediately after the variable droprate change when both BenV and Emily_Greer were talking about the change from a fixed droprate. They said it was a sliding scale, but that regardless of the number of cards you had, the drop % was greater than 3%.

They learned from their earlier mistakes in the beta (when the Peggers of the Beta would whine about the low drop rate even after they raised it from 2% to 3%) and decided not to reveal the exact drop rate % system.

[MaddAddams]

I just want to say that I won my 46th card today. I then proceeded to win three more cards within the next twelve wins. Which was both hilarious and useless, since I can't make a team of double Rumikos.

[Milskidasith]

They revealed it somewhere... I can't remember exactly what it was...

I think it was D = ((46-X)/46 * 100%)*.4) + 5%

Where X is the number of unique cards you have.

[ShigityShank]

Didn't they say there was a seperate scale for people with like <10 cards or something, or am I making that up?

[Pzychotix]

I have to say, this was a hilariously enjoyable bed-time read.